Believe it or not, I do actually follow @millihill on Twitter, so I'd already heard about this.

Suspended for posting nudes - sounds fair to me, irrespective of the context.

I was going to say that Elon will be able to sort this out soon enough, but I see she's already back after deleting the photo.

(I'm not defending the hiring of the Mermaid guy or his porno photoshoot).

No, it's not - giving the freedom to someone to self ID, and allowing them to do so to somehow evade justice, are 2 separate things.

Aha! You sneaked that in ... has it been specifically stated that a man can ID as a woman, just to get sent to a female prison ? I find it very hard to believe that it would be allowed ...

Jez, no one is saying that it's no big deal - the offenders should be rooted out no matter who or where they are. And no one should be allowed to change gender just to get a lighter sentence or an 'easier' prison term. (And personally, I still think the penis-havers should be either in a male prison, or separated in a female prison).

But let's not forget the fact that the vast majority of crimes against women are committed by men.

Linking back to something that was said earlier, an interesting thing that I read with regards to small charities and orgs, is that they tend to hire based on friendships, rather than hiring the best people for the job. So not to excuse Mermaids for any mistakes they have made, but this is apparently a known issue with grass-roots led support teams. They do need to be more professional when hiring and firing, although having said that, even the establishment gets it wrong too ... on the BBC this morning ...

BBC: Inside the unit investigating police abuse claims - The Met's new Domestic and Sexual Offences Unit (DASO unit) ... the team's caseload has grown to 625 allegations of sexual or domestic abuse committed by officers or police staff. "Essentially, it was a gang of bullies. And very much the boys' club. If you were female, you weren't part of the crew".

The very people that are supposed to be protecting us are actually attacking us ... maybe we need a new thread to highlight each and every misdemeanour committed by the police ?

At least 1,600 allegations against police or police staff have been investigated across England and Wales in the past three years - although several large forces, including Manchester and West Midlands Police refused to provide any figures, claiming it would be too costly to collate them. ?

Prisons - you are arguing with people that are not on this forum, so I don't know what else to say. I have already agreed with you to some extent by stating my beliefs clearly :

Posted by: @driver8

(And personally, I still think the penis-havers should be either in a male prison, or separated in a female prison).

And here again ... when I've already said that I do not believe in doing things behind the back of the parent/s (apart from initial counselling).

I honestly don't think anything is being made rubbish for women - trans women have been using female toilets for decades, the vast majority of the time completely unnoticed and unremarked upon.
I can understand that some traumatised women might feel apprehension at the idea of sharing a public toilet space with a trans woman, but once they see there is no harm being done, this will actually work to allay their fears. The caution can be re-framed towards the people that are statistically far more likely to offend - boyfriends/husbands, ex-boyfriends/husbands, step dads, uncles, brothers - these are the men that cause the real harm.

Not sure what you mean - why isn't everyone transitioning ? Uhm, because very few people feel they are 'living in the wrong body' or 'living a lie'. Just like you and me.

^ I feel like we've covered this to death.

Meanwhile, to use a very simple analogy, it's like some people are upset and angry about this person powdering their nose >

https://twitter.com/EddieIzzardLab/status/1579796464833806336

When (imo) they should be far more upset and angry about this (and the 625 active complaints) - the real danger to women and girls ... men >

https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/c8657zxk82wt

If men wanted to assault women in toilets, they'd be already doing it. It is incredibly rare, much much less than the horrible violence that boyfriends/husbands inflict on their girlfriends/wives very single day.

Arthur already answered this better than I can >

Posted by: @arthurfowler

No, not the same:

Sure, cos 99.999% of people are just having a pee. After 20 years of trans women using the toilets of their choice, non-trans women would see there's no threat there, and the real threat is in their homes.

Nope, not at all - I was meaning:
(1) the vast majority of the danger is from men, due to sheer numbers.
(2) where is your outrage against the police, when there are 625 actual active cases right now, of male police officers attacking females - I bet (*) that's far more active cases just against the Met than against the whole of the UK trans community. (*) I've no evidence - any stats available?

I'm wondering how jezzer knows what goes on behind closed doors at the Grauniad.

Or if it's just ill informed fantasising.

Let's just be glad that the Guardian are prepared to stick their head above the parapet.

This is an incredibly complex set of questions, that require careful, considered, and above all, nuanced, answers.

Those of us who want to see trans and pre-trans people accepted and supported , as well as those of us who want to see women's safety protected ...

^^^ d8: amended

I obviously understand what you are getting at, but I want to see safe facilities for everyone - under the guise of a perceived threat, it's time to invest in public facilities to make them safer. Historically, 'public conveniences' have been underfunded, and tucked away as a necessary 'inconvenience' for councils!

No one is making anything easy - any wrongdoing should always be challenged (though I do understand that's easier said than done).
This might sound flippant, but using your language - if a dodgy man enters a public loo that has a mix of women and trans women powdering their noses, then the butch trans women will provide a formidable defence against a wrongdoer. Sisterhood united! ✊

1. It's not, it's an irrational fear of perceived threat. Extreme example - being afraid of flying, when the car journey is statistically more dangerous.
2. I'm not shutting anything down, and this might be the best option in some circumstances.
3. No idea.
4. We've covered this before - when even the Met police have 625 active cases (with all the money and background checks at their disposal), charities can and should do all they can to ID/fire/arrest any wrongdoers.

Au contraire, mon petit ami - I actively follow both sides on twitter, and the TRAs are often very critical of the Guardian's stance (JKR's bestie Bindel writes for them!)

It's not about mockery. It's about directing attention to what matters most.

Earlier, I made an unqualified mention of 'women's safe spaces'. 

It was immediately pointed out that not all previously 'women only' places were necessarily 'safe spaces', or indeed, needed to be.

I'd already thought that the toilet issue was a non starter because all public toilets have lockable cubicles, and many have people of either sex working there.

Prisons could easily be handled by having dedicated wings and association areas for trans people, or even a dedicated prison.

My main objection was to the aggressive trans supporters trying to shut down discussion, and the unholy alliance of editors, celebs, and others who are too stupid or too cowardly, to take a more nuanced view, and allow for a rational, intelligent, discussion that balances the needs of both sides.