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The reason why nobody is going to take your identifying as a dragon seriously is that it is not a 'thing'.
There is no evidence of a large cohort of people who suffer body dysmorphia because they seriously believe they should be mythical beasts. And if you do believe that you are a mythical beast, you're more likely to end up in the nut house than be recognised as a dragon.
Rather than mess about with daft analogies, why not engage in a dialogue about how to balance the needs of born women with those who have had to suffer a great deal both before becoming and then undergoing the process of becoming women?
ummm ... the tabloids in the 1980s regularly stoked outrage over gay teachers and scout leaders !
- Outrage at Archbishop's gay teacher views (2005!) - gay teachers should be banned.
- Abused gay teachers 'need more help (2009)'
- Poofters. Benders. Shirtlifters. Bumboys. Lezzies. This was how British tabloid headlines referred to gay men and lesbians in the 1980s
I covered this earlier - see my reply to Q.
When actually ... I don't!
Again, I discussed this before as 'overshoot'.
Sure! And you're free to use whichever toilets you prefer!
We are definitely in a period of ... transition! ?
As I said in the old thread, the issues are currently high profile as several decades worth of people finally feel they can 'come out', (following the likes of Jenner and Page) so it seems like a lot of people making a lot of noise! When in actuality, it's us old farts wondering what the hell happening, whereas the Gen Z-ers are pretty cool with all the gender fluid, non-binary goings-on.
The bulemia comparison isn't that far off IMHO. Generally caused by a body image issue. It would be very easy for one of these TG charities to decide that the person has bulemia because they are living as the wrong gender, and then spend effort convincing them of that rather than looking at any other potential causes. And yes, I'm not aware of any times this has happened, but with the amount of media attention telling us that everybody is gay or TG, it would be very easy for a young person to jump to the wrong conclusion and get the wrong kind of "help". And again, I have no issue with gay or TG people, it's just that the normalising of it seems to be at the expense of making the vast majority of people seem not normal. Like one of my work colleague's children who was watching kid's TV and asked him why her skin wasn't brown like the kids on TV.
The bulemia comparison isn't that far off IMHO. Generally caused by a body image issue. It would be very easy for one of these TG charities to decide that the person has bulemia because they are living as the wrong gender, and then spend effort convincing them of that rather than looking at any other potential causes. And yes, I'm not aware of any times this has happened, but with the amount of media attention telling us that everybody is gay or TG, it would be very easy for a young person to jump to the wrong conclusion and get the wrong kind of "help". And again, I have no issue with gay or TG people, it's just that the normalising of it seems to be at the expense of making the vast majority of people seem not normal. Like one of my work colleague's children who was watching kid's TV and asked him why her skin wasn't brown like the kids on TV.
It does make me wonder if there's some big plan to keep us all divided so that something else can be done without us noticing.
There's so much hyperbole here that I don't know where to even begin! ?
Nope, not normal, and to be condemned.
Thanks - I will have read. I don't remember that we've discussed blockers in the old thread before? From what I know, I'm still undecided. I don't think society has enough experience yet to handle things effectively. (Your Matilda Gosling/sex-matters thread confirms how poor the research is).
I don't think I would support my own (hypothetical) child taking puberty blockers, not least cos it's such a huge step that I would be unable to make an informed decision myself, preferring to wait till 16/18 for my child to make that decision themselves. (Although I understand the argument that going through the 'wrong' puberty can be devastating for some trans kids). Hopefully, we would be able to get the support needed as a family to make the best choice.
We need more info on this >
We need research, sources and stats, as it's too easy to band this idea about. I remember arguments that teens go through periods of sexuality 'confusion', but I never experienced that and don't know anyone that did - not to say it doesn't happen of course, but just how common is it?
For some reason, this reminded me of the gay marriage arguments in the USA, when one prominent Republican said publicly that legalising gay marriage would (paraphrasing) open the floodgates to men marrying their sons !
I remember years ago, Eddie Izzard describing himself as a lesbian trapped in a man's body - and stumbled across an interesting thread yesterday, filled with trans people saying basically the same thing.
Must be very weird ... to like women, but also wanting to *be* like them ... for all of us cis het white stale males, it's very hard to understand, as it's so far removed from our own life experiences.
It does make me wonder if there's some big plan to keep us all divided so that something else can be done without us noticing.
Despite being such a prominent battleground in the trans-rights debate, Britons tend to support transgender people using their new gender’s toilet .
Women tend to reject the argument that allowing transgender women to use female facilities puts them at risk - doing so does not present any genuine risk of harm. (Men are more sceptical, thinking such a move puts women in danger).
Age of transitioning - you could be right, as I cannot find any stats on older trans people (although I remember reading something a good while ago). The fact that so many young (and potentially autistic) people (especially girls) seem to get caught up in body dysphoria is certainly a cause for concern - there needs to be much more mental health support available.
Aggression - I am against all forms, from all sides, but it must be remembered that trans people are often the most vulnerable and 'at risk'.
This is important (sex-matters pdf - looking forward to vol2) ...
The reality of periods is a spectrum of flowing blood, from rust through to deep scarlet, with all the inconvenience, leaks and pain that too often accompany it. Girls also know what changing shape means. The male gaze often lands on breasts and hips.
How much easier might it seem to opt out of this messy, bloody, spotlight-inducing puberty by choosing to identify out of being a girl?
I think some teenagers (of both sexes) embrace their new bodies, whereas others hate the changes and want to shrink.
There’s growing evidence that their friends, schools and the internet influence how young people identify ... “social contagion” in friendship groups, when concepts, beliefs and behaviours spread through a group of people by imitation or a pressure to conform.
Reminds me of the so-called "pregnancy pact" of 18 pregnant teenagers !
But gender dysphoria definitions are clear ....
In adults/adolescents, for a doctor to clinically diagnose gender dysphoria, a person is under significant social distress and experiences 2+ of the following conditions for 6+ months:
- A significant difference between a person’s experience/expression of gender, and their primary/secondary sex characteristics.
- A strong desire to not have those sex characteristics.
- A strong desire for sex characteristics of another gender.
- A strong desire to be another gender.
- A strong desire for others to treat the individual as another gender.
- A belief that the individual has the same feelings and reactions as another gender.
... and for kids too ... it's not just dressing up!
A pre-adolescent child can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria only if they have a strong desire to be of the other gender, and they meet the five characteristics:
• In boys, a strong preference for cross-dressing; in girls, a strong preference for masculine clothing.
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play.
• A strong preference for the toys, games & activities stereotypically used by the other gender.
• A strong rejection of the toys, games & activities stereotypically used by their own gender.
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender.In addition:
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy.
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender
I understand the point you're making, but you know that's impossible - it's a miracle there are any polls on this at all, let alone something so specific.
Meanwhile, I listened to Maya from sex-matters (starts @ 1h06, after Roxy Music) ... very interesting, as are the couple of phone-ins to follow.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001c7cf
There's so much hyperbole here that I don't know where to even begin!
Try? We know there's at least one person who even went as far as gender reassignment surgery before realising that it was a body image issue rather than a body sex issue.
And do you not think the pushing of gay/ TG agenda in mainstream media has the potential to influence the young rather than just make it seem ok ie to make it seem odd if you aren't gay or TG?
And the part about the workmate's child wasn't hyperbole, it was a real life experience.
The last part is just a musing about how there seems to be a lot of attempt to create division at the mo (men wanting to be able to use women's toilets, black people wanting apologies/ compensation for things done to their ancestors by their ancestors slave traders, women holding all men accountable for violence against women). I'd honestly thought we'd made great strides in becoming a lot more accepting to the point of I barely register the skin colour of someone I meet.
And I suspect that most people wouldn't have an issue with a TG person using their newly assigned gender's toilets; it's more the self ID that's the issue.
Try
OK ...
We know there's at least one person who even went as far as gender reassignment surgery before realising that it was a body image issue rather than a body sex issue.
Sure, some people do change their minds - the 'de-transitioners' get a lot of attention on twitter. I don't think there are any accurate stats yet on how many people are happier after transitioning, but it's the vast majority for sure. The autism link needs wider publicity, and should be included in the very early consultation/counselling stages.
And do you not think the pushing of gay/ TG agenda in mainstream media has the potential to influence the young rather than just make it seem ok ie to make it seem odd if you aren't gay or TG?
hehe ... you see 'pushing' whereas I see 'inclusion'. OK - serious question - do you think that if you watched hours of gay/TG agenda as a teenager, that you might have turned out gay ? See how daft that sounds? Alongside this 'agenda' are also the widely publicised increases in bullying, depression, and suicides - who would choose that lifestyle?
The last part ... Daily Mail racism ... blah
... ?
it's more the self ID that's the issue.
Trans people have been living their lives for decades, and using the toilets of their choosing.
The bottom line is, by far and away the single biggest danger to women and children is male-born men (most often someone they know),
and the most vulnerable people in society are trans men and women.
What's increased recently is tabloid hyperbole. On the backs on increasing numbers of people identifying as gender disphoric, trans, non-binary, gender fluid ...
Stats yes, but none that would please you. If you are genuinely interested, best find your own sources.
Nope, I'm not making light of anything. It's the old ... I'm saying "Save The Tiger" but you're replying "Don't you worry about the lions??".
Yes I agree - there are a tiny amount of very shouty TRAs that get way too much attention, when the vast majority of trans people just want to get on with their lives as their preferred gender.
(Gender not sex, but even so ...) Nope, not at all - that sounds daft to me. But anyone doing that is a tiny minority of an already small minority.
So no, I don't agree with someone who self-IDs simply to get seemingly more favourable treatment from the system - the systems needs to hurry up and sort things out.
